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Author Topic: Becoming an FPP Pro: Cake Poker  (Read 4364 times)
huge_yakman
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« on: December 30, 2008, 11:11:02 am »

I've had so much fun researching FPP strategies at PokerStars that I've decided to post on each of the Online Card Rooms. David (Deadmoney) asked about feasability of being a rakeback pro on 50NL at Cake Poker; thus I will start here:


First we must understand their point system:

The Frequent Player Point (FPP)
FPPs are earned for every penny in rake. Every player dealt in a hand will earn 0.01 FPP for every $0.01 raked in that hand.

The Gold Chip  (http://cakepoker.com/en/Rewards/GoldChips/EarningGoldChips.aspx)
FPPs are converted automatically into Gold Chips at a descending rate (that is their terminology).

1st Gold Chip is awarded when 120 FPPs are earned
2nd Gold Chip is awarded when the next 115 FPPs are earned
3rd Gold Chip is awarded when the next 110 FPPs are earned
4th Gold Chip is awarded when the next 90 FPPs are earned
5th & 6th Gold Chip are awarded when the next 70 FPPs are earned (The 6th Gold Chip is essentially free)
7th Gold Chip and beyond are awarded for every successive 70 FPPs earned

Since this post concerns a rakeback pro playing 100k hands/mo, we can show that a gold chip will average just a fraction over 70 FPPs (Asymptote at 70 FPPs). e.g. 500 gold chips will accumulate when a player has earned 35,085 FPPs in one month. That makes an average of 70.17 FPPs per Gold Chip. For the remainder of the post I will just use 70FPPs = 1 Gold Chip for simplicity.

Second, their Rake Structure: http://cakepoker.com/en/PlayPoker/RealMoneyGames/Rake.aspx

Fixed Limit:

Stakes between $2/$4 and $50/$100

6 or more players dealt in: $1 for each $20 in the pot with a max of $3.

No Limit:

Stakes between $0.01/$0.02 and $10/$20

6 or more players dealt in: $0.05 for each $1 in the pot with a max of $3.

Third, how much is a Gold Chip worth in real money?

Cake won't let me see their FPP store "The Cake Shop". I downloaded the software and created a free account, but when I go to the shop it tells me I've timed out and requests I log in again...endless loop. I am waiting for their verification e-mail, but it hasn't come yet.

I still have not been able to get into the "Cake Shop". I did receive my verification e-mail and successfully verified my account, but I still get the endless loop of "your session has timed out, please log in again" when I try to access the shop. I'd really like to see if they have something comparable to PokerStars "Cash Bonuses" that would be attractive to an FPP Pro.


So, all I have to go by is the fact that their cake shop web page says this:

Quote
Gaming Devices including XBOX 360 & Nintendo Wii's starting at 1660 Gold Chips.

1660 Gold Chips * 70FPPs = 116,200 FPPs

A Wii has an average value of $350; thus an FPP is worth $0.003. This is absolutely horrible. I'm hoping there is some better deals in their Cake Shop. (Compare this to PokerStars where a Wii costs 30,000 FPPs creating an FPP value of $0.0167) Anyone wanna send me some Cake Shop details?

LLP Forum Member Floors05 has offered up some "Cake Shop" screen shots. I've come up with a couple of comparables:

Apple Ipod Itouch 16GB costs 1332 gold chips at Cake Poker. 1332 * 70FPP = 93,240 FPPs.  The 32GB version costs 38,500 FPPs at PokerStars.

JVC 30GB HD Camcorder has an MSRP of $499 and retails at Amazon for $349. It costs 1732 gold chips or 1732 * 70 FPPs = 121,240 FPPs. This makes an FPP worth $349/121,240 = $0.0028

So, it does seem that one Cake Poker FPP is worth just fractions of one US penny. I will use $0.003 as a constant for Cake FPP value.


Finally, how many FPPs will one earn per hand?

Fixed Limit:

Their Rake Structure is very similar to PokerStars, but Cake will give a 3rd FPP when the pot hits $60; PokerStars will not give a 3rd FPP unless you are playing high stakes. I will give a bump over the PokerStars VPP/hand due to the ability to catch that elusive 3rd FPP at Cake Poker. Therefore, I will use  1FPP/hand for $3/$6 and 2FPP/hand for $5/$10...I think that is more-than-reasonable and probably over-estimating. If anyone has results from actual play, I'd love to add them here.

No Limit:

At 50NL, a quick check shows 19 six-max tables full with an average pot size of just over $6. $0.05 will be raked for every dollar in the pot; thus an average of $0.30 rake. There is a one-one relationship between rake and FPPs; thus one should earn 0.30FPPs per hand. (This discounts hands that don't see a flop).

At 100NL, a quick check shows 11 six-max tables full with an average pot size of just over $10. $0.05 will be raked for every dollar in the pot; thus an average of $0.50 rake. There is a one-one relationship between rake and FPPs; thus one should earn 0.50FPPs per hand. (This discounts hands that don't see a flop).

At 200NL, a quick check shows 7 six-max tables full with an average pot size of just over $40. $0.05 will be raked for every dollar in the pot; thus an average of $2.00 rake. There is a one-one relationship between rake and FPPs; thus one should earn 2FPPs per hand. (This discounts hands that don't see a flop).

At 400NL, a quick check shows 5 six-max tables full with an average pot size of just over $50. $0.05 will be raked for every dollar in the pot; thus an average of $2.50 rake. There is a one-one relationship between rake and FPPs; thus one should earn 2.5FPPs per hand. (This discounts hands that don't see a flop).


Notice that this one-to-one relationship makes 200 & 400NL really start to earn major FPPs. This is much better than PokerStars where their piece-meal function will keep you well under 1VPP/hand. Tony's stats have him at 0.54 VPP/hand at 200NL and the PokerStars VIP calculator seems to estimate 0.45 VPP/hand at 200NL. But, if one attains Platinum at PokerStars, the resulting FPP/hand will be 2.5 times VPP: somewhere around 1.25FPP/hand. SuperNova level -- the level that an FPP Pro will be for the majority of the year -- will net 1.75FPP/hand which is nearing Cake Poker's 2FPP/hand.


Conclusion

It just does not seem to be a good idea to consider mega-tabling Cake Poker to hope for profit from FPPs. They may dole out FPPs faster than PokerStars at Mid-Stakes NL, but from my estimates it seems that one may end up only clearing about 25% more FPPs over a year playing 100k hands/mo at 200NL. But, since a PokerStars FPP has 633% more value than a Cake Poker FPP ($0.016 vs. $0.003), it would be ludicrous to conclude that Cake Poker is offering a better program. Also, playing 3/6 or 5/10 Limit at Cake Poker would net the 100k hands/month FPP Pro 40% fewer FPPs than at PokerStars.

Maybe there is something I am missing, but from what is publicly available at their web site and from what has been offered up by forum members, I believe I'm being fair.

On a side note, if one googles Cake Poker Rakeback, there are many sites offering a 33% rakeback promotion. Does anyone know the details of this? I did some quick research but could only get vague ideas. If these plans are real, then it's pretty obvious that you should sign up, maximize your Table-EV by playing one's most profitable limit and number of tables, and reap the real cash rakeback.

--Waiting for data regarding Cake Shop items--
Do they have anything that is more like cash? Gift certificates? What are their really big ticket items? Concierge service?

« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 11:51:34 am by huge_yakman » Logged

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Tony
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« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2008, 11:14:38 am »

Looking forward to this Smile

I have an account at Cake and the software is surprisingly reasonable for multi-tabling cash games, at least at 50NL.  I'm not sure about 100NL+ and limit games though, the traffic seemed pretty slow at those stakes.
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Floors05
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« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2008, 03:21:53 pm »

here are a few pic's of there shop  just 2 many to shoot and put up but if u want more just ask   hope this gets you and idea Wink







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huge_yakman
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2009, 11:52:37 am »

Bump...finished second draft
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verstehen
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« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2009, 03:08:19 pm »

very nice work.  A few things:

1) I've posted on this before but electronics seem to be BY FAR THE WORST VALUE in the fpp stores.  A 32g ipod touch (retail ~$300) costs 38,500 fpp on stars, which is equivalent to about $500 in bonuses or >$550 in gift cards.  In fact most merchandise is a bad deal, even taking into account free delivery and the absence of sales tax.

2) The reason a lot of people play at cake is because they offer rakeback (sorry lowlim).  Therefore you are getting quite a large "bonus" besides fpps. 

3) Because cake is so much smaller than big sites like FTP, I'm not sure it would be possible to mega-table all the time.  There just may not be that many people playing. 

4) Cake doesn't support HUDs IIRC.  Therefore it would be very difficult to play 8+ tables and grind points/rakeback.

Really appreciate you putting this all together. - Adam
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Tony
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« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2009, 12:19:14 am »

Good points V, and very nice work HY.

The other thing I noticed when I was playing at Cake is that if you try to mega-table, the software crashes fairly often.  Not all the time, but enough to cause some stress after a while.
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verstehen
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« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 01:32:46 pm »

by the way, only 7 tables of 200NL and 11 of 100NL?  I don't think I've ever seen less than 100 at either level on stars, and probably 200+ at microstakes. 

One more thing, 100K hands a month is almost impossible, I play a lot of tables and I've never come even close to playing that many hands, I think 40-50K is a lot even for 8+ tabling.
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Deadmoney
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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2009, 02:55:40 pm »

HY,

Thanks for doing this, Personally?...I have yet to use any of the gold card or Chip bonuses, I have often thought about using it to play in tourneys, but often its days when I am working so I dont bother.

e.g they will have "use 5 x 3 Clubs to enter blah blah blah

I should investigate further , i have only glanced at the cakeshop.  in addition they have a promo, where if you get all 52 playing cards you get $52,000 .... at $50NL the highest playing card you will be awarded is a J (I am 99%) sure of this and as I have been there a year it makes sesne) .... so in order to get this I am surmising you have to be at least playing $100NL and probably $200 tables to get the requisite cards.

They also have cash bonuses where they will put up, e.g  6d 7d 8d 9d :Td: ...redeem these cards for $100 or something.

I remember glancing at one for an 8c  get $75, i thought wow! then saw it was like you have to redeem 10 of them or something


Regards David
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Deadmoney
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« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 06:01:46 am »




Hugh This is the 1st page....... there are no HUGE bonuses, cash backs etc or big ticket items, its a bit of a sucky shop tbh......also to give you an idea I have 650 gold chips, aftger about a year of playing mostly at $50NL




Regards David
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  DO NOT CONFUSE LUCK, WITH SKILL!

Movie Quote from.... "The Replacement Killers" after John Lee escapes from his Assassins and "Kogan" is reporting the escape to the Big Boss (Wei) and saying that Lee "got lucky this time..."
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