tricky, tricky, tricky - bad play by me or good play by him?

[cerealpoker]

i'm pretty sure i made a couple mistakes, but him not 4-betting with kk totally took me off guard..

PokerStars Game #21552163002:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2008/10/27 21:41:48 ET
Table 'Panopaea II' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 2: jamesjackson ($10.50 in chips)
Seat 3: doubled8ck ($9.95 in chips)
Seat 5: mandelfisk ($2 in chips)
Seat 6: tom504 ($10 in chips)
Seat 7: reru1983 ($12.35 in chips)
Seat 8: foreng ($14.45 in chips)
Seat 9: FORZA-IBRA ($11.50 in chips)
foreng: posts small blind $0.05
FORZA-IBRA: posts big blind $0.10
Vandergata: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FORZA-IBRA [ ]
jamesjackson: folds
doubled8ck: folds
mandelfisk: folds
Tuschi777 leaves the table
tom504: raises $0.30 to $0.40
reru1983: folds
foreng: raises $0.60 to $1
Bruce717 joins the table at seat #4
FORZA-IBRA: raises $1 to $2
tom504: folds
foreng: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [ ]
foreng: bets $1.20
FORZA-IBRA: raises $1.80 to $3
foreng: calls $1.80
*** TURN *** [ ] []
foreng: checks
FORZA-IBRA: bets $6.50 and is all-in
foreng: calls $6.50
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
foreng: shows [ ] (three of a kind, Kings)
FORZA-IBRA: mucks hand
foreng collected $22.30 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $23.40 | Rake $1.10
Board [ ]
Seat 2: jamesjackson folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: doubled8ck folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: mandelfisk folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: tom504 folded before Flop
Seat 7: reru1983 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: foreng (small blind) showed [ ] and won ($22.30) with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 9: FORZA-IBRA (big blind) mucked [ ]

i don't think his slowplay is really good here.  i mean, obviously it's pretty sexy when i have the qq but in general isn't he just giving a free card to an Ax?  maybe i was naive on the flop but i kind of think shoving the turn was correct.. or am i just a huge fucking donk?  lol

[Coughy_boy]

in general isn't he just giving a free card to an Ax? 

In general you don't have Ax!

OOP, I probably would've pushed PF; I don't like the risk he took.  But an ace only flops 21% (less if you have one), and you have Ax 50% at best, so that's not the biggest part of his risk, IMO.

There's no fr way I want my stack in after he calls PF (OOP!!) and then bets into me.  Slow down, bro.

[Tony]

You played this fine.  I'd have just raised a bit bigger preflop and also raised larger on the flop.  Your stack to pot ratio is tiny on the flop.

The only way you could possibly fold here is if you KNOW for sure that his call of your 4-bet OOP means KK+, and I don't see how you can give him credit for that.  He played it badly and should have shoved preflop.  He'll have a hand like JJ or AQs or AK way more often in this situation.

And don't even consider just calling his flop bet and then folding, that would be awful.  You played it fine, it's just a cooler.

[Deadmoney]

Played Fine,

Terrible Flop play on his part...................

Regards David

[Coughy_boy]

Terrible Flop play on his part...

Yeah, I think maybe the issue here is whether this guy is really good or really bad.

He'll have a hand like JJ or AQs or AK way more often in this situation.

Well, maybe.  I think some players tend to lead on second street, and some refuse to lead.  I think this is a fairly reliable pattern, and if you track it well, it's a huge edge, IMO.  Knowing his general approach to second street would have helped here, IMO.

[cerealpoker]

yeah..  i hadn't been playing many hands, but he certainly wasn't good (who is at 10 nl anyways lol) based on a few hands.  i don't know... just frustrating to shit away a buyin on that.  i guess the consensus is that he fucked up the flop and my turn shove was ok?

[Coughy_boy]

No, not me.  I'm way off.  I won't put in the third raise.  I'm not really worried about CO behind.  You helped him play correctly there, as you did with SB.

And if I did 4-bet and he called, I'm c/c'ing it down, as best I can.  I don't want my stack in on a coin flip.  I haven't put in all this time to get my stack in on coin flips.  I will sometimes actually flip my coin, but that's not what I'm trying to say here.

But I'm not saying you played poorly.  Donks are difficult to read and thus difficult to control.  And you can't foresee the K on the river, which might have gotten you off it.

I think Tony makes a good point about the SPR, but sometimes it starts looking like a duck and quacking like a duck ...  And my SPR would have been higher.

[Tony]

No, not me.  I'm way off.  I won't put in the third raise.  I'm not really worried about CO behind.

You're not reading the situation.  The initial open was from a steal position and the SB three bet.  The CO has a wide range and the SB correspondingly will also often be three betting with a fairly wide range.  You're out of position.  This is a trivial and excellent spot to 4 bet, and you should be very happy about it.

Obviously if you have stats on the SB and he only 3-bets 1% of the time over a significant sample, then yes you should fold your queens.   But folding as a default in this situation is just horribly weak/tight.  Also calling rather than 4-betting isn't good.  If you don't think you're ahead of the 3-bettor's range you shouldn't be in the hand in the first place.  Either 4-bet or fold.

You helped him play correctly there, as you did with SB.

The opener didn't play correctly.  Cold-calling a 4-bet in a three way pot is a horrible play.

And if I did 4-bet and he called, I'm c/c'ing it down, as best I can.  I don't want my stack in on a coin flip.  I haven't put in all this time to get my stack in on coin flips.

Lol, c/c down?  Have you even considered his calling range?  This is NL10 for christ sake.  You're just assuming he has AK or QQ+?  And what are you going to do when he bets into your check?  Fold?  Call a flop bet then fold to a turn shove?  Ha ha, good luck with that.

And my SPR would have been higher.

Even if you cold-call the three-bet rather than 4-bet your spr is small enough to comfortably commit with your overpair on the flop, particularly as the pot will be three-handed and already fairly large.  But it's a moot point because 4-betting or folding are both clearly better imo.

[Coughy_boy]

You're not reading the situation.

This is an opinion.  I read it differently from you, as would every other person.

But folding as a default in this situation is just horribly weak/tight.

Quoting from No Limit Holdem Theory and Practice; Sklansky & Miller, "A Preflop Strategy," p. 129:  "Move in with pocket aces or kings, and fold everything else."

Cold-calling a 4-bet in a three way pot is a horrible play.

No one even did this.  But please, continue slinging nonsequiturs; they're your specialty.  By raising SB's bet, CP gave SB another opportunity to increase the wager, thereby helping him play correctly.  No one can force another player to play correctly.

[Tony]

This is an opinion.

No it isn't.  It's a fact.  It's very clear you're just looking at the fact there was a raise and a reraise, and as usual you're completely ignoring other factors such as the position of the players involved and their resulting ranges.

Quoting from No Limit Holdem Theory and Practice; Sklansky & Miller, "A Preflop Strategy," p. 129:  "Move in with pocket aces or kings, and fold everything else."

This is based on a DEFAULT strategy which they admit is overly simplified.  If you want to play like a robot it's excellent advice.

No one even did this.  But please, continue slinging nonsequiturs; they're your specialty.

Err, yes they did.  Read the HH again.  Hero 4-bet, original raiser called.

By raising SB's bet, CP gave SB another opportunity to increase the wager

Correct.  And this is a bad thing, why?  Don't tell me, you'd be planning to fold to a shove would you?

[Coughy_boy]

Hero 4-bet, original raiser called.

That's not a cold call.  Basic stuff.

And this is a bad thing, why?

Because he helped SB play correctly!!  EVERY time your opponent plays correctly, you lose!!  Again, basic, basic stuff.  Fundamental, solid poker.

It's very clear you're just looking at the fact there was a raise and a reraise,

It's clear to YOU, because it's clearly your opinion.  What's clear to me, as my opinion, is that you have serious, serious, difficulties distinguishing between your thoughts about something and the thing you're thinking about.

When I write the word "dog," I'm not thinking about the dog you're thinking about when you read what I wrote.  My thoughts do not depend upon what you think of them.  And I am not, and never will be, what you think I am.  Basic, basic philosophy.  One's perception of reality is ALWAYS different from the reality being perceived, and you seem to have profound trouble understanding this.