JJ in position on a Q87 board

[verstehen]

OK my friends, tell me what you think of this...

I'm new to the table and have no read on the UTG raiser:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($13.10)
CO ($4)
Button ($1.70)
SB ($1.45)
BB ($4.65)
UTG ($13.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP with , .   
UTG raises to $0.4, Hero calls $0.40, 4 folds.

UTG raises and I flat call, because I don't think JJ is strong enough to re-raise an UTG raiser. 

Flop: ($0.95) , , (2 players)
UTG bets $0.5

He thinks and then makes a small bet.  This could be a missed AK, a hand like TT that he doesn't want to check.  While I'd probably fold to a pot-sized bet here, this seems a little weak.  I decide to raise.

Hero raises to $1.5, UTG calls $1.

Hmmm... He flat calls a flop raise.  Maybe he has TPTK but is concerned I may have a set, two pair, or KK?

Turn: ($3.95) (2 players)
UTG checks

The board pairs queens.  Either he has a monster or a busted AK/AJ type hand.  I've been trying to get out of the fixed-limit habit of checking the turn, so I make a small bet to try to take the pot.

Hero bets $1.2, UTG calls $1.20.

OK, he must have me beat now.  Either he has a boat or a queen.

River: ($6.35) (2 players)
UTG bets $3.5, Hero raises to $10 (All-In), UTG calls $6.50.

Final Pot: $26.35

*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero shows , .  a full house, Jacks full of Queens
UTG shows , .  three of a kind, Queens
Verstehen wins the pot ($24.45) with a full house, Jacks full of Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $26.45 | Rake $2



And then it begins... he can't shut up.  I'm such an idiot; I played that hand so poorly, and on and on. 

Clearly I got lucky here, but as I thought about this is it seems like the guy got a bit greedy.  He had at least four opportunities to win a decent sized pot here:

• If he check-raised the flop, I would have folded
• If he 3-bet the flop, I would have folded
• If he check-raised the turn, I would have folded
• If he bet out on the turn for a reasonable amount, even half the pot, I would have folded

Instead, he slowplays his hand, and then makes a horrible call on the river when I shove for 100BB on a paired board. 

Also, I would have obviously folded to a big river bet if I didn't have a boat.  He was NOT getting paid off on a $4 out of position river bet with just an underpair.  So he either wins a 5-6 dollar pot, or loses a 25 dollar one. 

Pocket jacks is such a tricky hand.  If the flop had an ace or two overcards, I would have folded to the flop bet.  But when it's Q-x-x I have a harder time believing I'm beat. 

What do you think of this situation?  Would you just let it go on the flop?  I would usually check the turn (would have been a good play here) but that creates too many problems in no-limit when you face a huge river bet with a medium pair. 

[Deadmoney]

Hi Verse,

I like your play and I play it same, I think you played it very well...Yes you got lucky, but well played.

His play was awful, he should pot the flop, and having induced a bet on the turn from you he shoulda C/R , If I had his hand I am definetly betting that turn, hoping you have KQ/QJ ......big hand big pot, build the dam thing.

Ok, back on point, I would put him on TT/99/AK type hand and , the fact that he checks the turn....... I really think I am betting here after the weak flop bet and flat call to your raise...... the board pairing the Q is a great time to bet IMHO , and him NOT raising , would solidify my read.

as for the river, tough fold for him.......... but I think I could find one, I would put you on 88/77 ...not JJ


Regards David

[robsmith82]

Why the flop raise? Your basically gonna get rid of the hands you beat (AK, TT) and lose money to the AA, KK, AQ type hands.  For me the flop is an obvious call with position.  Anyone else agree?

[Zerbet]

Trying to trap/slow play trips is one of the most efficient ways I know to get your dick handed to you.

Thank him for over-valuing his hand, and write down his name for your "friends" list.

[ASillySpade]

He played the hand badly, got too greedy and just plain wasn't thinking. By the river there was a straight on the board. He should have at least given you credit for drawing to it when the J hit and you bet the river.

Before he called how much time did he take to put you on a hand, or did he just outright make the call?

[Deadmoney]

Why the flop raise? Your basically gonna get rid of the hands you beat (AK, TT) and lose money to the AA, KK, AQ type hands.  For me the flop is an obvious call with position.  Anyone else agree?

I see your logic here, Rob......... But I like the flop raise, what are you suggesting? just flat call ...aside from a Jack no other card is gonna help me?,

Ok, so we call in position, whats are plan for the rest of the hand?


Regards David

[viosoc13]

Trying to trap/slow play trips is one of the most efficient ways I know to get your dick handed to you.

Thank him for over-valuing his hand, and write down his name for your "friends" list.

Well said, Zerbet.  Well said. 

This guy needs to learn a lesson and I think you taught him one.  He gave you no reason to fold except for a tiny half-pot bet on the flop.  I likely call that (not raise) and see what happens on the turn.  When the turn pairs, I would start to assume he doesn't have the Q.  I make the same bet you do.  When the J rivers, I scream "Thank you God," and get as much money in the pot as possible.

Add him to your friends list for trying to be sly.

[verstehen]

Rob, my concern was if I flat called, he comes at it again on the turn and I have no idea what he has.  Would you call on the turn if the board paired queens?  I think I'd probably throw it away at that point. 

I want to quickly get rid of those hands like AK and TT (don't I?).  If he 3-bets me, I'm willing to let this go.  I wasn't expecting the call, I figured he would either fold (stone bluff, AK, AJ, medium pair) or raise (AQ/KQ/KK/AA/QQ/77/88).  I suppose some people would 3-bet AK here but I thought this might be the rare "raising for information" moment in NL.  I always hated that rationale in limit but in NL it seems there are a few situations where you can only narrow hand ranges by raising. 

The call was a bit confusing.  When he checked the turn, I wasn't sure if this was "I have AK and want a free card, but I'm afraid you have a Q" or "I have a monster and can't lose, so I can wait until the river."  Turns out it wasn't either. 

Re: SillySpade, this was pretty much an instant call.  I don't know what he though I had, I guess three of a kind with an ace kicker was too big a hand to lay down.  He is getting 3:1 here so I guess it's a difficult fold. 

[robsmith82]

Why the flop raise? Your basically gonna get rid of the hands you beat (AK, TT) and lose money to the AA, KK, AQ type hands.  For me the flop is an obvious call with position.  Anyone else agree?

I see your logic here, Rob......... But I like the flop raise, what are you suggesting? just flat call ...aside from a Jack no other card is gonna help me?,

Ok, so we call in position, whats are plan for the rest of the hand?


Regards David

Dave, I feel like you still play flops like "limit" poker.  What do we gain by raising this flop? We take the hand down if we are ahead.  This is obviously not a bad thing, as you dont want to be outplayed and have to fold the best hand later, but I like to give myself more credit than this.  I should be able to outplay most of my opponents.

Ok, so if we just call, we have the chance of making more from hands we beat, as well as losing less from hands that beat us.  This is where PAHUD really comes into play.  Against aggressive tricky opponents, I call the flop, check behind the turn and snap call a reasonable river bet.  If he bets the turn, I have a decision to make.  Have we seen him 2 barrel? If not, we can get away here (saving the money you raised with on the flop with the other method.)  IF not, we also have the option of playing back at him.

Against nitty opponents with a low WTSD and high aggression, we can raise the flop no problem, and make that the last money we put in.  The most important thing to remember is that every bet you make is one of two things: A value bet, or a bluff.  Every other type of bet can be split into these categories somewhere along the line.

You have to remember that in NL, reopening the betting is a dangerous thing to do, especially against good players.  If you ever watch high stakes games, you'll see how often a pot goes check bet call on every street or bet raise fold.  You wont see a raising war on 1 street like you would at other limits as your opponents are always tricky and could be trapping you for all your chips at any point.

[Deadmoney]

Rob,

I understand what your saying and in most cases I agree with you but THIS hand?

Dave, I feel like you still play flops like "limit" poker. What do we gain by raising this flop?

1st off, we are not getting tricky by floating this with air , with the intent to take it away from him on the turn... we are raising to see if the JJ we have is good, and to see if this is AK/AJ type hand.

We take the hand down if we are ahead.  This is obviously not a bad thing

, ... I have no problem  Rob, taking this pot down with an underpair to a PF raiser

as you dont want to be outplayed and have to fold the best hand later

...... I am not worried about being outplayed, like you I feel I am better than Avg, what I dont want is to give away cheap cards to under pairs, OCs, suited connectors and if I AM behind then let me hear it now.

If he bets the turn, I have a decision to make.

............made harder now because you "just" called his pissy flop bet and now with the Q pairing on the turn, he may be thinking "hey my TT/99 is probably good OR  if he raised with A8s/A7s he may WELL double-barrel thinking he has the best hand.

Having raised on the flop , it gives an option to "take a free card" on the turn

You have to remember that in NL, reopening the betting is a dangerous thing to do, especially against good players.  If you ever watch high stakes games, you'll see how often a pot goes check bet call on every street or bet raise fold.

Rob, I appreciate that, but in reality ,your not comparing an average $10NL Full Tilt Poker player against HSP players are you??

Yes re-opening the betting is dangerous, but again i say THIS hand, your not doing it for kicks? your doing it for a reason and to plan your hand better IMHO.

in as much as re-opening the betting is bad, it cant be any worse than:

Call a raise PF, call a flop bet, call a turn bet,..............

Regards David

[robsmith82]

Passive play in position is great when players refuse to stop pushing until you push back.  Like I said its a WAWB hand and I like to call these flops, keep the pot smaller and play for a showdown.  I guess you like to finish hands early.  I like to see the turn and river as this is where I feel weak players make the most expensive mistakes.
I dont mind giving cheap or free cards to hands with few outs if it can make more money on later streets, and especially if I may be way behind anyway, I am giving MYSELF a free card.  I just dont see what your gaining from raising this flop, seriously.  Winning a small pot with the best hand against an opponent with 2-6 outs isnt what I'd call a victory...

Im not saying your way is wrong dave its just not the way I play, Its interesting how we are both winning players at 6maxNL and seem to play hands a very different way. Id be interested to know your WTSD%...

[Deadmoney]

Im not saying your way is wrong dave its just not the way I play, Its interesting how we are both winning players at 6maxNL and seem to play hands a very different way. Id be interested to know your WTSD%...

I wish I knew mate as you know PT doesnt work for PKR or Cake 


Regards David

[verstehen]

The most important thing to remember is that every bet you make is one of two things: A value bet, or a bluff.  Every other type of bet can be split into these categories somewhere along the line.

Isn't this one of those situations where you can't know which it is?  Maybe he has top pair with a weak kicker and decides it's too much action (yes, people do open-raise with QJs at low limits).  Maybe he has TT and I'm value-betting as a massive favorite. 

I'd prefer to take this pot down because I have a vulnerable hand.  If the turn is an overcard, that's definitely a problem given his UTG raising position.  If it's a complete blank, say 3 , and he bets out again, I'm looking at calling that bet and a much bigger one on the river with only a 2-outer against a probable higher pair. 

Seems like the big advantage of flat-calling is that he gets nervous and checks it down.  At higher limits, a better player might push back at my raise with a wider range that would include TT and AK, putting me to the test.  Like I said, I'd probably fold to a 3-bet here. 

Damn, NL gets complicated even in the simplest situations; heads-up in position with a pocket pair and I still can't decide what's best here... 

[robsmith82]

Thats because this situation is very player dependent verstehen.  Knowing what type of player you're against makes it a lot easier to choose the best line. Which is why I ALWAYS play with PAhud.  Your right, if you had no idea what type of opponent you were against, it might be best to raise the flop and take down the hand or discover the monster.  This keeps you out of marginal (yet in my opinion more profitable) spots.

Isn't this one of those situations where you can't know which it is?

Exactly! Which is why I wouldnt neccessarily advocate betting.  Everytime you bet, make sure its for a reason, and make sure you have a plan for future streets.

[verstehen]

OK I see what you're saying - don't bet when you don't know where it's going.  I probably don't flat call enough, especially in position.  I blame it on ol' TJ Cloutier, a big advocate of raise-or-fold poker. 

I guess my thinking was that since I didn't really have a plan for later streets, I would try to end the hand on the flop.  I was thinking that most of the time, he'll either fold to the raise (e.g. he has an ace with an unpaired kicker) or three-bet, in which case I'll fold.  I was a little surprised by the flat-call, although I can see that with TPTK that's certainly not a cra

As I said, if the complexion of this flop, is just a little different, say:

K 8 7

instead of

Q 8 7

I'm folding JJ to most bets. 

[robsmith82]

Ummm... I dont mean to be rude, but I've read one of Cloutiers books and I suggest you put it down and pick up something by Miller ot Harrington! Cloutiers books are so out of touch with todays play, especially online, I'll never read another one again.  I think it made me worse... 

[Zerbet]

I wish I knew mate as you know PT doesnt work for PKR or Cake 

FYI, Realtime HUD currently works for Cake (it may not forever, since the author said that he didn't know when he added support for Cake that RT's use is apparently in violation of Cake's Terms of Service, and so he does not intend to support Cake - if changes to the client cause RT to stop working, he isn't going to fix it.)

[Coughy_boy]

UTG raises and I flat call, because I don't think JJ is strong enough to re-raise an UTG raiser. 

Uh, OK.  Are you gonna stay in the shallow end your whole life?   

Actually, I played a similar hand once, ended up all in on the river, and lost to Q7 offsuit.  If he stays with you, he's obviously got a Q (AA or KK unlikely).  He's ranting because you drew out AND IT'S HIS FAULT!!!  Generally well played, IMO.

[verstehen]

I still like the flat call with jacks. 

There's a little piece on the Full Tilt "tips from the pros" section by Gavin Smith, one of the crazy-loosest no-limit players ever, called "In Defense of the Call":

Most poker literature warns of the dangers of becoming a calling station. Common wisdom has it that when you're playing a hand, you should be betting, raising or folding. Calling is usually considered the worst thing you can do.  I disagree...

A tight player opens in early position for a raise of three times the big blind. You look at your cards and see pocket Tens. You probably don't want to fold Tens. It might be as good a hand as you've seen in a long while, and it may very well be the best hand at that moment. Many people would say that, in this situation, you should throw in a large re-raise.

But the re-raise can be dangerous. Depending on the size of your stack, you could end up committed to the pot and have no choice but to call if your opponent moves all-in. If that happens, you're probably up against a higher pair or, at best, A-K. You never want to commit all your chips when you're either a small favorite or a big underdog.

If, however, you just call the open-raise, you'll have a far better opportunity to make a good decision after the flop. The flop might come A-Q-7, at which point, you can fold to any bet, knowing there's essentially no chance your hand is best. Should you see a flop of 4-4-6 and your opponent bets, you can raise. Most opponents holding only A-K would fold at that point. If your opponent then moves all-in, you can be pretty sure that your Tens are no good. You can fold, having preserved a good portion of your stack.

Do you guys re-raise with jacks here?  If he 3-bets pre-flop, do you get all-in?

Yeah, TJ's advice is a little dated.  He's basically the opposite of Doyle Brunson and successful cash game players in that he hates big drawing hands and is very critical of pushing with AK on a missed flop.  Because he's a tournament player, he advocates avoiding situations where you have a small edge or a big draw out of position.  I'm still trying to un-learn that habit, since I started playing tournaments and didn't play cash NL until almost a year later. 

Yes, Harrington is one of my all-time favorites along with the Full Tilt Strategy guide. 

[robsmith82]

I really dont mind both plays verstehen, Im happy to call or reraise with JJ.  Probably reraising slightly more than calling as my opponents are so weak I'm not afraid of a tight early player as much.  Basically when you just call against a tight early player, its so you get your set value without having to fold preflop.  The problem you have is when it comes rags and your opponent has AA-QQ your probably losing your stack.  If you got 4-bet preflop you could have gotten away cheaply.
The two plays are available to you and theres no reason not to switch between the two as you see fit.
As far as the cloutier style... its bad enough for todays full ring games but if your trying to play 6max this tight weak without pushing draws your gonna get killed.